DE ORATORE

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thelivyjr
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Re: DE ORATORE

Post by thelivyjr »

And getting back to Julius Caesar's Civil War, and praetor Marcus Caelius Rufus, who has just been debarred from political life in Rome and banned from the Roman Senate, we have:

Caelius was smarting with indignation at his disgrace; he made a feint of going off to join Caesar, but secretly sent messages to Milo, who had killed Clodius and been condemned on that count.

He recalled Milo to Italy, because the latter still had the remains of a troop of gladiators from the games he had given, joined forces with him, and sent him to the district around Thurii (situated on the Tarentine gulf near Sibari in the Province of Cosenza, Calabria, Italy) to incite the herdsmen to revolt.

Caelius himself went to Casilinum (an ancient city of Campania, Italy, situated some 3 miles north-west of the ancient Capua at the junction of the Via Appia and Via Latina, at their crossing of the river Volturnus); however, his standards and arms at Capua were seized, at the same time as the gladiators at Naples were discovered to be planning the betrayal of the town.

His plans were revealed and he was shut out of the Capua.

The Roman community had taken up arms and considered that he must be treated as an enemy; so, afraid that he might be in danger, he abandoned his design and went off elsewhere.

Meanwhile, Milo was sending letters around to towns saying that he was acting on the instructions and with the authority of Pompey, from whom he had received orders from Vibullius; he was also trying to win over those whom he judged to be in difficulties from debts.

Making no progress with these people, he broke open some slave barracks and began an assault on Cosa in the territory of Thurii,

There, when he attempted to win over some of the townsfolk and offered money to Caesar's Gallic and Spanish cavalry who had been put in as a garrison, they killed him.

end quotes

And such was the ignominious end of Milo, who killed Clodius!

By the sword you live, by the sword you die?
thelivyjr
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Re: DE ORATORE

Post by thelivyjr »

And jumping back in time to early Rome and Superbus we have from Wikipedia as follows:

Tarquin commenced his reign by refusing to bury the dead Servius, and then putting to death a number of leading senators, whom he suspected of remaining loyal to Servius.

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And once again, it must be said that we are talking about a history that was very well known by people here in America, especially at the time of our nation's beginning, when it was not at all clear that we would have a history, as we get a glimpse of from the Speech to the Pennsylvania Convention by James Wilson on November 24, 1787, as follows:

To the operation of these truths, we are to ascribe the scene, hitherto unparalleled, which America now exhibits to the world - a gentle, a peaceful, a voluntary, and a deliberate transition from one constitution of government to another.

In other parts of the world, the idea of revolutions in government is, by a mournful and an indissoluble association, connected with the idea of wars and all the calamities attendant on wars.

But happy experience teaches us to view such revolutions in a very different light - to consider them only as progressive steps in improving the knowledge of government, and increasing the happiness of society and mankind.

Oft have I viewed, with silent pleasure and admiration, the force and prevalence of this principle through the United States, that the supreme power resides in the people; and that they never part with it.

It may be called the panacea in politics.

There can be no disorder in the community but may here receive a radical cure.

If the error be in the legislature, it may be corrected by the constitution.

If in the constitution, it may be corrected by the people.

There is a remedy, therefore, for every distemper in government; if the people are not wanting to themselves.

For a people wanting to themselves, there is no remedy.

From their power, as we have seen, there is no appeal.

To their error, there is no superior principle of correction.

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Which takes us back to Rome and Superbus, as follows:

By not replacing the slain senators, and not consulting the senate on matters of government, he diminished both the size and the authority of the senate.

In another break with tradition, Tarquin judged capital crimes without the advice of counselors, causing fear amongst those who might think to oppose him.

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Think about that, people, in these turbulent political times we now find ourselves in, where the Democrat or Optimate faction in the House of Representatives is vying for control of the office of the executive with the elected holder of that office, a Populare - do we want another Superbus, this time in this country?

Getting back to Superbus and politics as the game was played in early Rome, we have:

He made a powerful ally when he betrothed his daughter to Octavius Mamilius of Tusculum, among the most eminent of the Latin chiefs.

Early in his reign, Tarquin called a meeting of the Latin leaders to discuss the bonds between Rome and the Latin towns.

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Here it is important to understand that like the United States today, at the time, Italy was occupied and controlled by many different tribes - the Romans, those who resided in Rome, a city, like Washington. D.C. is but a city, were but one of those tribes, and while it was allied with some of those tribes, it was at war with others, hence the need for conducting "foreign affairs," as we are seeing with this meeting, to wit:

The meeting was held at a grove sacred to the goddess Ferentina.

At the meeting, Turnus Herdonius inveighed against Tarquin's arrogance, and warned his countrymen against trusting the Roman king.

Tarquin then bribed Turnus' servant to store a large number of swords in his master's lodging.

Tarquin called together the Latin leaders, and accused Turnus of plotting his assassination.

The Latin leaders accompanied Tarquin to Turnus' lodging and, the swords then being discovered, the Latin's guilt was then speedily inferred.

Turnus was condemned to be thrown into a pool of water in the grove, with a wooden frame, or cratis, placed over his head, into which stones were thrown, drowning him.

The meeting of the Latin chiefs then continued, and Tarquin persuaded them to renew their treaty with Rome, becoming her allies rather than her enemies.

It was agreed that the soldiers of the Latins would attend at the grove on an appointed day, and form a united military force with the Roman army.

Next, Tarquin instigated a war against the Volsci, taking the wealthy town of Suessa Pometia.

He celebrated a triumph, and with the spoils of this conquest, he commenced the erection of the Temple of Jupiter Optimus Maximus, which Tarquin the Elder had vowed.

He then engaged in a war with Gabii, one of the Latin cities that had rejected the treaty with Rome.

Unable to take the city by force of arms, Tarquin resorted to another stratagem.

His son, Sextus, pretending to be ill-treated by his father, and covered with the bloody marks of stripes, fled to Gabii.

The infatuated inhabitants entrusted him with the command of their troops, and when he had obtained the unlimited confidence of the citizens, he sent a messenger to his father to inquire how he should deliver the city into his hands.

The king, who was walking in his garden when the messenger arrived, made no reply, but kept striking off the heads of the tallest poppies with his stick.

Sextus took the hint, and put to death, or banished on false charges, all the leading men of Gabii, after which he had no difficulty in compelling the city to submit.

Tarquin agreed upon a peace with the Aequi, and renewed the treaty of peace between Rome and the Etruscans.

According to the Fasti Triumphales, he won a victory over the Sabines, and established Roman colonies at the towns of Signia and Circeii.

At Rome, Tarquin leveled the top of the Tarpeian Rock, overlooking the Forum, and removed a number of ancient Sabine shrines, in order to make way for the Temple of Jupiter Optimus Maximus on the Capitoline Hill.

He constructed tiers of seats in the circus, and ordered the excavation of Rome's great sewer, the cloaca maxima.

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And there we will leave the story to rest for the moment …

And so ...
thelivyjr
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Re: DE ORATORE

Post by thelivyjr »

thelivyjr wrote:
Amidst the moral and political decadence of the state, Cicero wrote De Oratore to describe the ideal orator and imagine him as a moral guide of the state.

He did not intend De Oratore as merely a treatise on rhetoric, but went beyond mere technique to make several references to philosophical principles.

Cicero understood that the power of persuasion — the ability to verbally manipulate opinion in crucial political decisions — was a key issue.

The power of words in the hands of a man without scruples or principles would endanger the whole community.

The perfect orator shall be not merely a skilled speaker without moral principles, but both an expert of rhetorical technique and a man of wide knowledge in law, history, and ethical principles.

Those skilled orators are needed now more than ever in our sick society in this country, which more and more resembles the times in Rome when Cicero actually wrote those words.

For anyone just stopping by and wondering what is going on in here, it so far is a free-ranging discussion of ancient history compared to contemporary American history ...
thelivyjr
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Re: DE ORATORE

Post by thelivyjr »

Which takes us back in time to the end of the reign of Rome's last king, as follows (from Wikipedia):

In 509 BC, having angered the Roman populace through the pace and burden of constant building, Tarquin embarked on a campaign against the Rutuli.

At that time, the Rutuli were a very wealthy nation, and Tarquin was keen to obtain the spoils that would come with victory, in hopes of assuaging the ire of his subjects.

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And here it is necessary to understand that the people called the "Romans" were but one set of people in Italy, where there were at that time many other peoples in tribes that were not affiliated with the tribes of the Roman people, essentially three at this period of Rome's history, and conquering neighboring peoples at that time for booty and power and territory and slaves was a common practice, as we see here with the attempt of Superbus to conquer the Rutuli.

The Rutuli or Rutulians were an ancient people in Italy located in a territory whose capital was the ancient town of Ardea, located about 35 km southeast of Rome.

Thought to have been descended from the Umbri and the Pelasgians, according to modern scholars they were more probably connected with the Etruscan or Ligurian peoples.

Getting back to the downfall of Superbus, we have:

Failing to take their capital of Ardea by storm, the king determined to take the city by siege.

With little prospect of battle, the young noblemen in the king's army fell to drinking and boasting.

When the subject turned to the virtue of their wives, Lucius Tarquinius Collatinus claimed to have the most dedicated of spouses.

With his companions, they secretly visited each other's homes, and discovered all of the wives enjoying themselves, except for Lucretia, the wife of Collatinus, who was engaged in domestic activities.

Lucretia received the princes graciously, and together her beauty and virtue kindled the flame of desire in Collatinus' cousin, Sextus Tarquinius, the king's son.

After a few days, Sextus returned to Collatia, where he implored Lucretia to give herself to him.

When she refused, he threatened to kill her, and claim that he had discovered her in the act of adultery with a slave, if she did not yield to him.

To spare her husband the shame threatened by Sextus, Lucretia submitted to his whims.

But when he had departed for the camp, she sent for her husband and father, revealing the whole affair, and accusing Sextus.

Despite the pleas of her family, Lucretia took her own life out of shame.

Collatinus, together with his father-in-law, Spurius Lucretius Tricipitinus, and his companions, Lucius Junius Brutus and Publius Valerius, swore an oath to expel the king and his family from Rome.


As Tribune of the Celeres, Brutus was head of the king's personal bodyguard, and entitled to summon the Roman comitia.

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In ancient Rome, the comitia was a legal assembly of the people.

Within each comitia, voting was by group; the majority in each group determined its vote, which takes us back to the story, as follows:

This he (Lucius Junius Brutus) did, and by recounting the various grievances of the people, the king's abuses of power, and by inflaming public sentiment with the tale of the rape of Lucretia, Brutus persuaded the comitia to revoke the king's imperium and send him into exile.

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In ancient Rome, "imperium" meant "command" or "supreme power" or "the right to command the force of the state in order to enforce the law."

And getting back to the story once again:

Tullia fled the city in fear of the mob, while Sextus Tarquinius, his deed revealed, fled to Gabii, where he hoped for the protection of the Roman garrison.

However, his previous conduct there had made him many enemies, and he was soon assassinated.


In place of the king, the comitia centuriata resolved to elect two consuls to hold power jointly.

Lucretius, the prefect of the city, presided over the election of the first consuls, Brutus and Collatinus.

When word of the uprising reached the king, Tarquin abandoned Ardea, and sought support from his allies in Etruria.

The cities of Veii and Tarquinii sent contingents to join the king's army, and he prepared to march upon Rome.

Brutus, meanwhile, prepared a force to meet the returning army.

In a surprising reversal, Brutus demanded that his colleague, Collatinus, resign the consulship and go into exile, because he bore the hated name of Tarquinius.

Stunned by this betrayal, Collatinus complied, and his father-in-law was chosen to succeed him.

Meanwhile, the king sent ambassadors to the senate, ostensibly to request the return of his personal property, but in reality to subvert a number of Rome's leading men.

When this plot was discovered, those found guilty were put to death by the consuls.

Brutus was forced to condemn to death his two sons, Titus and Tiberius, who had taken part in the conspiracy.


Leaving Lucretius in charge of the city, Brutus departed to meet the king upon the field of battle.

At the Battle of Silva Arsia, the Romans won a hard-fought victory over the king and his Etruscan allies.

Each side sustained painful losses; the consul Brutus and his cousin, Arruns Tarquinius, fell in battle against each other.

After this failure, Tarquin turned to Lars Porsena, the king of Clusium.

Porsena's march on Rome and the valiant defense of the Romans achieved legendary status, giving rise to the story of Horatius at the bridge, and the bravery of Gaius Mucius Scaevola.

Accounts vary as to whether Porsena finally entered Rome, or was thwarted, but modern scholarship suggests that he was able to occupy the city briefly before withdrawing.

In any case, his efforts were of no avail to the exiled Roman king.

Tarquin's final attempt to regain the Roman kingdom came in 498 or 496 BC, when he persuaded his son-in-law, Octavius Mamilius, dictator of Tusculum, to march on Rome at the head of a Latin army.

The Roman army was led by the dictator, Albus Postumius Albus, and his Master of the Horse, Titus Aebutius Elva, while the elderly king and his last remaining son, Titus Tarquinius, accompanied by a force of Roman exiles, fought alongside the Latins.

Once more the battle was hard fought and narrowly decided, with both sides suffering great losses.

Mamilius was slain, the master of the horse grievously injured, and Titus Tarquinius barely escaped with his life.

But in the end, the Latins abandoned the field, and Rome retained her independence.

After the Latin defeat and the death of his son-in-law, Tarquin went to the court of Aristodemus at Cumae, where he died in 495.

end quotes

And such is history written, people, often in blood …

And so ...
thelivyjr
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Re: DE ORATORE

Post by thelivyjr »

So, to recap here, when those events in Rome were taking place, the downfall of the Tarquins, it was 509 B.C., which means five hundred and nine more years would have to elapse before Jesus was born in a province under the control of the Roman emperor Tiberius Caesar in Rome, which is indeed a powerful statement about who the Romans were as a people, and what they were capable of achieving, this in an age where the technology we rely upon today to keep our nation functioning did not exist …

And from there, let's jump forward in time to the period 166–180 AD, so 166+ years after the birth of Jesus in the reign of Tiberius Caesar, to the reign of the Roman emperor Marcus Aurelius, when Rome now controls a goodly part of the known world at that time, where we have as follows from Wikipedia, to wit:

War with Germanic tribes (166–180)

During the early 160s, Fronto's son-in-law Victorinus was stationed as a legate in Germany.

He was there with his wife and children (another child had stayed with Fronto and his wife in Rome).

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For those unfamiliar with the term, in Roman times, a legatus (anglicised as legate) was a high-ranking Roman military officer in the Roman Army, equivalent to a modern high-ranking general officer.

Initially used to delegate power, the term became formalised under Augustus as the officer in command of a legion, which it would be in this case, as we are talking after Augustus.

From the times of the Roman Republic, legates received large shares of the military's rewards at the end of a successful campaign.

This made the position a lucrative one, so it could often attract even distinguished consuls or other high-ranking political figures within Roman politics (e.g., the consul Lucius Julius Caesar volunteered late in the Gallic Wars as a legate under his first cousin once removed, Gaius Julius Caesar).

Getting back to Fronto's son-in-law in Germany in the early 160's, we have:

The condition on the northern frontier looked grave.

A frontier post had been destroyed, and it looked like all the peoples of central and northern Europe were in turmoil.

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And that is history as it happened, people, not how anybody today might have wished it different.

Turmoil is a characteristic of people, which is but one of the lessons those of us brought up on Roman history, which is the story of many people over many centuries of time, far longer than we have been a nation, learned from the study of that history!

And getting back to that story, we have further lessons in human nature, as follows:

There was corruption among the officers: Victorinus had to ask for the resignation of a legionary legate who was taking bribes.

Experienced governors had been replaced by friends and relatives of the imperial family.

Lucius Dasumius Tullius Tuscus, a distant relative of Hadrian, was in Upper Pannonia, succeeding the experienced Marcus Nonius Macrinus.

Lower Pannonia was under the obscure Tiberius Haterius Saturnius.

Marcus Servilius Fabianus Maximus was shuffled from Lower Moesia to Upper Moesia when Marcus Iallius Bassus had joined Lucius in Antioch.

Lower Moesia was filled by Pontius Laelianus' son.

The Dacias were still divided in three, governed by a praetorian senator and two procurators.

The peace could not hold long; Lower Pannonia did not even have a legion.

Starting in the 160s, Germanic tribes, and other nomadic people launched raids along the northern border, particularly into Gaul and across the Danube.

This new impetus westwards was probably due to attacks from tribes further east.

A first invasion of the Chatti in the province of Germania Superior was repulsed in 162.

Far more dangerous was the invasion of 166, when the Marcomanni of Bohemia, clients of the Roman Empire since 19 AD, crossed the Danube together with the Lombards and other Germanic tribes.

Soon thereafter, the Iranian Sarmatian Iazyges attacked between the Danube and the Theiss rivers.

The Costoboci, coming from the Carpathian area, invaded Moesia, Macedonia, and Greece.

After a long struggle, Marcus managed to push back the invaders.

Numerous members of Germanic tribes settled in frontier regions like Dacia, Pannonia, Germany, and Italy itself.

This was not a new thing, but this time the numbers of settlers required the creation of two new frontier provinces on the left shore of the Danube, Sarmatia and Marcomannia, including today's Czech Republic, Slovakia, and Hungary.

Some Germanic tribes who settled in Ravenna revolted and managed to seize possession of the city.

For this reason, Marcus decided not only against bringing more barbarians into Italy, but even banished those who had previously been brought there.

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And such is history made, people, by people just like you and me
thelivyjr
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Re: DE ORATORE

Post by thelivyjr »

Five hundred (500) years ago now, in the "DISCOURSES OF NICCOLO MACHIAVELLI ON THE FIRST TEN (BOOKS) OF TITUS LIVIUS TO ZANOBI BUONDELMONTI AND COSIMO RUCELLAI," written circa 1517 A.D., in Chapter XXXIII, the author remarked that due to the Roman Republic growing in reputation, strength, and empire, its neighbors, who at first had not thought how much harm that new Republic would be able to bring to them, recognized their error too late, and wanting to remedy that situation, they arranged for forty peoples (tribes) to conspire against Rome.

And that thought about tribes, which has been a recurring theme in here as we talk about ancient Rome, brings us forward in time to our times today, and an article in The Wall Street Journal entitled "Jim Mattis: Duty, Democracy and the Threat of Tribalism" by Jim Mattis on 28 August 2019, where he states as follows, to wit:

What concerns me most as a military man is not our external adversaries; it is our internal divisiveness.

We are dividing into hostile tribes cheering against each other, fueled by emotion and a mutual disdain that jeopardizes our future, instead of rediscovering our common ground and finding solutions.

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My thought when I read that, to be very frank and truthful, is that we have no common ground in this country, because if we actually did, then it would logically follow that we would not be divided into hostile tribes cheering against each other.

But we are in fact now divided into hostile tribes cheering against each other, so it follows logically that we have no common ground, which takes us back to Mr. Mattis, as follows:

All Americans need to recognize that our democracy is an experiment — and one that can be reversed.

We all know that we’re better than our current politics.

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But are we, really?

For if in fact we really were better than our current politics, our current politics would be something far different and far better, indeed.

But they are not, because like in Rome, we are not better than our current politics, which are a direct reflection on us, the American people, and all our many hostile tribes that exist in this country today, which takes us back to Mr. Mattis, as follows:

Tribalism must not be allowed to destroy our experiment.

On each of our coins is inscribed America’s de facto motto, “E Pluribus Unum” — from many, one.

For our experiment in democracy to survive, we must live that motto.

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Except as we can clearly see from this FOX News article entitled "AOC, Pressley vow to help pay bail for counter-protesters arrested at 'Straight Pride' parade" by Danielle Wallace on 4 September 2019, tribalism has destroyed our "experiment," as follows:

Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, D-N.Y., and fellow member of “the Squad” Rep. Ayanna Pressley, D-Mass., vowed Saturday to contribute to a fund that is raising bail money for the 36 counter-protesters arrested at the “Straight Pride Parade" in Boston.

Nine of the counter-protesters arrested have been charged with assaulting police officers, the Boston Herald reported.

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Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, who is for those who are against law and order in this country, and who is for violence against law enforcement officers, is a congressperson from a congressional district in New York state.

The counter-protesters, her tribe, were in a neighboring state, Massachusetts, where AOC has no legitimate authority as a congressperson and yet, given the chance to support lawlessness and violence against law enforcement, she is right there invoking her authority as a congressperson to protect them, because that is what tribal leaders do - they protect their tribe against all others, even to the point of using violence as a political weapon, as we are seeing right here in this case, to wit:

Ocasio-Cortez and Pressley both tweeted out a link to a crowdsourcing page called The Solidarity Against Hate Legal Defense Fund, which has raised nearly $25,000 to pay bail and other legal fees of those arrested while protesting the march.

“One way to support the local LGBTQ community impacted by Boston’s white supremacist parade?” Ocasio-Cortez said on Twitter, sharing a link to the fund.

“Contribute to the Bail Fund for the activists who put themselves on the line protecting the Boston community.”

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So, AOC's tribe is called the "LGBTQ community," and her tribe is at war with another tribe that tribal leader AOC calls the "white supremacist" tribe, which takes us back to that article, as follows:

Ocasio-Cortez retweeted Pressley’s initial tweet about the fund.

Pressley slammed the “Straight Pride” event as an “#LGBT hate march” and asked followers to join her in making a contribution to the fund.

About 200 people marched in the “Straight Pride Parade” in downtown Boston on Saturday to defend heterosexuality, the Boston Globe reported.

Members of Super Happy Fun America, the group that organized the parade, were reportedly outnumbered along the parade route by thousands of protesters gathered behind police barricades near City Hall who criticized the event as homophobic.

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Yes, indeed, people, tribal politics in America today to the fore, which brings us to political violence as a potent political weapon for AOC and her tribe, as follows:

At least some of the counter-protesters were identified as Antifa, the controversial far-left group.

“We’re covered in black so when we attack these guys we can’t be prosecuted,” Jon Crowley, a self-identified Antifa member, told the Boston Herald while at Saturday’s parade.

He added that he believes violence is the only way to deal with the “Straight Pride” marchers, saying: “They are fascists, 100%."

"How else are you going to get them to shut up?”

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Out of many, we are one?

Not hardly, Mr. Mattis, not at all!
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Re: DE ORATORE

Post by thelivyjr »

So, yes, people, tribal politics here in America are not going away any time soon, and in fact, are becoming more firmly entrenched than ever, as we can clearly see in a FOX News article entitled "AOC slams 'Straight Pride' parade in Boston; event ends with police injuries, dozens of arrests: report" by Gerren Keith Gaynor on 2 September 2019, as follows:

Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez slammed a “Straight Pride” parade in Boston on Saturday and what she said appeared to be a lack of women, calling it an "I-Struggle-With-Masculinity" parade.

“For men who are allegedly so ‘proud’ of being straight, they seem to show real incompetence at attracting women to their event,” Ocasio-Cortez wrote along with a retweet of footage from the march.

“Seems more like a ‘I-Struggle-With-Masculinity’ parade to me.’”

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Now, let me say here that I am over 70 years of age, so I have had some experience of politics in this country in that time, and never do I recall another tribal leader like this AOC coming to the fore to divide us according to sexual habits.

Getting back to that article:

The "Straight Pride" parade was met with counter-protests and reportedly led to a handful of officers suffering injuries and almost three dozen arrests.

The controversial rally held in the downtown area led to a clash between Super Happy Fun America, the group that organized the parade, and protesters who criticized the event as homophobic.

About 200 people marched in the “Straight Parade” to celebrate traditional families and defend heterosexuality, reported the Boston Globe.

Marchers were reportedly outnumbered along the parade route by thousands of protesters, who gathered behind police barricades near City Hall.

Counter-protesters hit back at marchers with chants of their own.

“Alt right, get off our streets, no justice, no peace,” protesters said.

They also aimed their focus at police, reportedly chanting, “Who do you serve?"

"Who do you protect?”

“I’m outraged by the idea that straight people need a pride parade,” parade attendee Shoshanna Ehrlich told WDAF-TV.

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So, tribal politics - the one tribe should not have the same rights another tribe has, and the tribe denying the other tribe has the same rights they do has no qualms about using violence to achieve tribal superiority here, to wit:

The Saturday march was also condemned by Rep. Ayanna Pressley, who represents the Boston area.

The Democrat congresswoman slammed the event as a “hate march.”

“TY to the allies & accomplices who stood in the gap & laid their bodies on the line today in affront #LGBT hate march,” Pressley said in the statement Saturday.

“To everyone feeling unseen & vulnerable today...we got you."

"Equitable outrage."

"Our destinies & freedoms are tied.”

On Sunday, Boston police confirmed 36 people had been arrested and charged.

They are due to be arraigned in municipal court.

“We respect the rights of individuals to protest and take part in the democratic process."

"However, that right never trumps acts of violence or behavior that creates a risk for other participants, bystanders, or police,” Renee Alagrin, a Suffolk District Attorney’s office spokesman, said in a statement.
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Re: DE ORATORE

Post by thelivyjr »

And that story about AOC and her "squad" encouraging people to attack the police while promoting divisiveness in this country between those who are "straight," i.e. heterosexual, and those who are not takes us back to the "DISCOURSES OF NICCOLO MACHIAVELLI ON THE FIRST TEN (BOOKS) OF TITUS LIVIUS TO ZANOBI BUONDELMONTI AND COSIMO RUCELLAI," written circa 1517 A.D., where in CHAPTER XXXV, the author provides as follows, to wit:

The election of the Ten citizens (Decemvirs) created by the Roman people to make the laws in Rome, who in time became Tyrants, and without any regard took away her liberty, appears to be contrary to what was discussed above, that that authority which is taken by violence, not that which is given by suffrage, harms the Republics.

And if the authority given to the Ten and that which the Dictators have are considered, it will be seen beyond comparison that that of the Ten is greater.

For when a Dictator was created there remained the Tribunes, Consuls, (and) the Senate, with all their authority, and the Dictator could not take it away from them; and even if he should have been able to remove anyone from the Consulship, or from the Senate, he could not suppress the Senatorial order and make new laws.

So that the Senate, the Consuls, and the Tribunes, remaining with their authority, came to be as his guard to prevent him from going off from the right road.

But in the creation of the Ten all the contrary occurred, for they annulled the Consuls and the Tribunes, and they were given authority to make laws and do every other thing as the Roman People had.

So that, finding themselves alone, without Consuls, without Tribunes, without the appeal to the People, and because of this not having anyone to observe them, moved by the ambitions of Appius, they were able in the second year to become insolent.

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Appius, of course, is Appius Claudius Crassus Sabinus Regillensis, usually referred to simply as Appius Claudius Crassus or Crassinus, who was one of the decemvirs, a committee of ten men chosen in the place of consuls to draw up the tables of Roman law beginning in 451 BC.

He was the only member of the college to serve a second term in 450, having appointed himself to the position, together with nine others whose opinions agreed with his or whom he was able to dominate.

They continued in office the following year, without bothering to hold elections, but were overthrown in a popular revolt, and the consular government was restored.

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At the time the so-called "founding fathers" were considering a form or frame for this fledgling nation after separation from England, they were well aware of this history I am quoting above, as we can see from a review of FEDERALIST No. 70, The Executive Department Further Considered, from the New York Packet to the People of the State of New York by Alexander Hamilton on Tuesday, March 18, 1788, as follows:

The Decemvirs of Rome, whose name denotes their number, were more to be dreaded in their usurpation than any ONE of them would have been.

No person would think of proposing an Executive much more numerous than that body; from six to a dozen have been suggested for the number of the council.

The extreme of these numbers, is not too great for an easy combination; and from such a combination America would have more to fear, than from the ambition of any single individual.

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By looking at history, the founding fathers had hoped to fashion a government for this nation that could endure the test of time, without the turmoils that brought down Rome and other nations of antiquity that no longer exist other than as names in a forgotten book of history.

Getting back to Appius Claudius Crassus and the decemvirs of Rome, Wikipedia provides as follows:

Claudius (Appius) was elected consul for the year 451 BC, together with Titus Genucius Augurinus.

Three years earlier, envoys had been sent to Greece to study Greek law.

The envoys, Spurius Postumius Albus, Aulus Manlius Vulso, and Servius Sulpicius Camerinus, returned in 452 and reported their findings.

Shortly after Claudius and his colleague took office, it was decided to appoint a committee of ten men (decemviri), all of consular rank, who would draw up the tables of Roman law, based on both existing traditions and Greek precedents.

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Now, here we must remember that first, Rome had kings; then the king was deposed, that being Superbus, and the people of Rome elected two consuls as their leaders.

Now, we are seeing two of those consuls again changing the form of the government of Rome, which takes us to the first decemvirate, as follows:

The decemvirs were given the same authority as the consuls for their year of office, but as the consuls elected for 451, Claudius and Genucius were appointed decemvirs after resigning the consulship.

Their colleagues included the three envoys, as well as Spurius Veturius Crassus Cicurinus, Gaius Julius Iulus, Publius Sestius Capitolinus, Publius Curiatius Fistus Trigeminus, and Titus Romilius Rocus Vaticanus.

The decemvirs were seen to cooperate for the good of the state, and drew up the first ten tables of Roman law, winning the general approval of the people.

As their task remained unfinished at the end of their year, it was decided to appoint a second college of decemvirs for the following year.

Despite the reputation of his family for cruelty and hostility to the plebeians, Claudius gave the appearance of a fair and noble-minded man, earning the people's trust.

His colleagues, however, grew suspicious that he would seek to be reappointed for the following year.

They therefore tasked him with choosing the decemvirs for 450, and set an example by resigning their office, expecting Claudius to do the same.

To their chagrin, he appointed himself, together with nine entirely new colleagues, five of them plebeians, whom he believed to be like-minded to himself, or easily dominated.


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And there I am going to rest for the moment ...
thelivyjr
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Re: DE ORATORE

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So, returning to the Decemvirs of Rome, we pick up the story from Wikipedia as follows:

An ominous sign that the second decemvirate was not as noble-minded as the first came when the insignia of office were changed.

In 451, the ten decemvirs had shared a consul's escort of twelve lictors, each receiving the honour in rotation.

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For those unfamiliar with the term, in Rome, a lictor was a Roman civil servant who was a bodyguard to magistrates who held imperium.

Imperium was a form of authority held by a citizen to control a military or governmental entity.

They carried rods decorated with fasces and, outside the pomerium, with axes that symbolized the power to carry out capital punishment.

As to the pomerium or pomoerium, it was a religious boundary around the city of Rome and cities controlled by Rome.

In legal terms, Rome existed only within its pomerium; everything beyond it was simply territory (ager) belonging to Rome.

Getting back to the lictors, dictatorial lictors had axes even within the pomerium.

They followed the magistrate wherever he went, including the Forum, his house, temples, and the baths.

Lictors were organized in an ordered line before him, with the primus lictor (the principal lictor) directly in front of him, waiting for orders.

If there was a crowd, the lictors opened the way and kept their master safe, pushing all aside except for Roman matrons, who were accorded special honor.

They also had to stand beside the magistrate whenever he addressed the crowd.

Magistrates could only dispense with their lictors if they were visiting a free city or addressing a higher status magistrate.

Lictors also had legal and penal duties; they could, at their master's command, arrest Roman citizens and punish them.

Getting back to the decemvirs, then, now that we have an understanding of who the lictors were, we have:

But the following year, each of the decemvirs was accorded an escort of twelve lictors; and unlike a consul's, these lictors kept the axes attached to their fasces, symbolizing the decemvirs' power over life and death, even within the pomerium, the sacred boundary of Rome.

Since the beginning of the Republic, all lictors had removed the axes upon entering the city, in deference to the sovereignty of the people; only the lictors of a dictator retained the axes within the city.

Now the city was crowded with lictors.

The decemvirs did not hesitate to make an example of those who criticized them, subjecting their opponents to beatings and summary execution, and confiscating the property of anyone who offended their dignity.

Unlike the first decemvirs, the second college permitted no appeal from their judgment, ignoring the people's right of provocatio.

Young men from aristocratic families joined the decemvirs' retinue, and it came to be whispered that the decemvirs had already agreed among themselves not to hold elections for the following year, but to remain in office indefinitely.

The time for elections came and passed, and the decemvirs remained in power.

They published two more tables of Roman law, bringing the total to twelve; among the most onerous were those restricting the rights of the plebeians, and in particular one forbidding the intermarriage of patricians and plebeians.

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How quickly things can change, people.

Any lessons in there for us?
thelivyjr
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Re: DE ORATORE

Post by thelivyjr »

Those who use a mirror of brass can see to set their cap;

Those who use the mirror of antiquity can predict the rise and fall of nations!
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